Prize Roundup: Google Lunar X PRIZE, MoonROx, Space Entrepreneur Meetings

There's lots about the Google Lunar X PRIZE for today's roundup:

EVA Interviews Will Pomerantz - EVA Interviews

EVA Interviews Will Pomerantz about the Google Lunar X PRIZE - Out of the Cradle - This is the actual intervew. According to the interview, we can expect interviews of the Google Lunar X PRIZE teams, too!

Interview with SpaceFellowship.com - White Label Space on the Google Lunar X PRIZE Teams page

@ARCAspace - Everybody from Romania, behold: http://www.arcalunar.com/, our new website describing our Google Lunar X Prize mission. English version soon:)

@OmegaEnvoy - just had a great meeting with the UCF Venture Lab to help with our business model. http://www.venturelab.ucf.edu/

@odysseymoon - resend] Odyssey Moon Chief Scientist Paul Spudis leads LRO, Chandrayaan-1 search 4 lunar water 2day http://bit.ly/3UiK8o

It's all about the $$FUNDING$$ and Recent interview with Space Fellowship - LunaTrex on the Google Lunar X PRIZE Teams page

Moon Base One – Base Camp – Sundown - Micro-Space on the Google Lunar X PRIZE Teams page

Here are a few items to round out the roundup:

@Pomerantz - Some #NGLLC news coming down the pipeline soon (e.g. next couple of days). Stay tuned, #NASA and #newspace fans!

First Meeting of Suborbital Researchers Group Focuses on Innovative Research & Education Missions - Commercial Spaceflight Federation - Northrop Grumman Lunar Lander Challenge teams are mentioned.

@PeterDiamandis - just arrived in DC on redeye. meetings for X PRIZE and Space Adventures board meeting.

having dinner with Eric Anderson, Richard Garriott and Robert Walker in DC.

@RichardGarriott - @Space Adventures BOD meeting. The future of Private Spaceflight looks bright!

@ec_anderson - About to have dinner with @peterdiamandis and @richardgarriott should be fun!

From the NASA Centennial Challenges history page:

Lunar Oxygen Production or MoonROx - Now Expired ... This first-to-demonstrate challenge expired on June 1, 2009 with no winner. The challenge had been extended by an additional year in 2008.

That's unfortunate, because ISRU of all sorts is an important "force multiplier" for ambitious space ventures. However, it does raise the question of what happens to the funds that were set aside for the MoonROx Challenge prize.

Prize Roundup - June 26-27 - MoonROx and Sandbox, Nanotech, EurekaFest, Astronaut Glove, Space Map, Pirate Show, Green Racing for Green $, Lego Team

This post features the June picture (and Orbital category winner) from the 2009 Space Settlement Calendar resulting from the 2009 National Space Society calendar contest.

In my previous post, I gave a quick link to the announcement, but here's more on what's happening with NASA Ames and the Regolith Excavation Challenge, and what the implications are: Best. Sandbox. Ever. - The Launch Pad

From the Foresight Institute:
2009 Foresight Institute Feynman Prize for Theoretical and Experimental Molecular Nanotechnology - Submissions/nominations are due June 30, 2009
2009 Foresight Institute Prize in Communication - Submissions/nominations are due June 30, 2009
Foresight Institute Distinguished Student Award - Submissions/nominations are due August 22, 2009

In other nanotechnology prize news:

WORLD-RENOWNED NANOTECHNOLOGY EXPERT PROVES THERE IS BIG POTENTIAL IN THE SMALLEST OF MATTER - Lemelson-MIT Program - Professor Chad Mirkin Awarded the $500,000 Lemelson-MIT Prize for Revolutionary Advancements in Nanotechnology - (link from Cosmic Log):

A prolific inventor and entrepreneur, his innovations have the potential to transform the future of medical diagnostics and patient point-of-care and to ignite change across many industries from semi-conductors to healthcare. ... Mirkin, the George B. Rathmann Professor of Chemistry at Northwestern University (NU), will accept the prize and present his accomplishments to the public at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology during the Lemelson-MIT Program’s third-annual EurekaFest, a multi-day celebration of the inventive spirit, June 25-27.

EurekaFest has a lot of other activities, too. Here are some more pointers:

2009 winner of the $100,000 Lemelson-MIT Award for Sustainability
2009 Lemelson-MIT Student Prize Winner
Joel Selanikio ~ Lemelson-MIT Sustainability Hero - Maximizing Progress

Here's something from the MoonROx Challenge Team Agreement:

The CHALLENGE, and the opportunity to win the prize purse, expires on June 1, 2009. ...
CHALLENGE will be conducted through June 1, 2009, unless extended at CSEWI's discretion.

So, what happens next? Is it extended, are the rules changed, does the money go to another prize, or does the Treasury keep it? I don't know.

Celebration for "Reach for the Stars Rocket Contest" winners - Space for All

KC Space Pirates to appear on the Science Channel - Space Elevator Blog
Testing Results - Space Elevator Blog - This gives pointers to some of the recent posts on the Space Elevator Games site.

This may or not be news, but it's the first I noticed it. The Centennial Challenges site shows where the 2009 Astronaut Glove Challenge will be held: November 2009 → MIT Campus, Cambridge, MA → 2009 Purse $400K

Friday Funday Space Map Wrapup - The Launch Pad - The map shows where a lot of space activity is, including prize teams and organizations, Launch Pad followers, and others.

Racing Goes Green - Cosmic Log
On the Progressive Automotive X PRIZE: Fox said the detailed rules and schedules for the competition ahead - including on-the-road semifinals and finals - should be announced sometime in the next few weeks

Here's one of the links from the Cosmic Log article: MICHELIN EMBRACES GREEN RACING WITH MICHELIN® GREEN X® CHALLENGE

@teamfrednet - You can read more about our #GLXP Lego Mindstorm project at http://bit.ly/13L9XI

Exploring journalism's future - MIT News - In order to encourage interaction and collaboration among the conference participants, the Knight News Challenge sponsors announced early on that they would offer additional grants of $3,000, $2,000 and $1,000 to the top three proposals submitted by attendees, involving collaborations between groups that have not previously worked together.

Prize Roundup - May 19, 2009

Futurist: Reality Show Innovation - Congressional Quarterly Politics

Everybody Deserves a Roof - "Thinking Outside of the Box" - neXt PRIZE

fitzwillie - Editor of GeekDad.com. That says a lot right there.

Spent my lunch on the phone with LEGO, Google, and the Lunar X-Prize folks. Something cool is brewing. More at @makerfaire in two weeks!

makerfaire (twitter) - Maker Faire Bay Area May 30-31
makerfaire (web site) - The World's Largest DIY Festival

PeterDiamandis - Just exchanged emails with my friend Mike Massimino, Shuttle Astronaut who is traveling @17,500 mph 250miles above my head! very cool!

mojaverocketguy - Jonathan A. Goff -Your typical mild-mannered rocket engineer, dad, and entrepreneur:

dang. Scrubbed the test due to weather.

worden - Pharmasat lives! Our next step in understanding how life operates off planet - there will be many more to follow

PharmaSat - My team at SCU and Cal Poly has made contact with me, thanks guys!! I'll talk to you in another ~90 minutes

Given the small budget PharmaSat used, it seems like many of the Centennial Challenges proposed a few years ago (see here) - even those that require actual space missions - could be done on Centennial-Challenge-like budgets.

Doug_Comstock - Just picked 21 technologies to fly in August. See http://tinyurl.com/pzu2fe for more and http://tinyurl.com/qtfvob for list of projects.

Could this one be related to the MoonROx Challenge?

Free-Fall Regolith Heating, Packer Engineering Inc., Naperville, IL

ISDC 2009 Prizes, Contests, and Awards - Update

I'm going to update my earlier post on ISDC 2009 Prizes, Contests, and Awards. A lot more details have been added to the publicly available schedule since then. Here's the update. This only covers "Prizes, Contests, and Awards", or speakers that have contributed a lot to such activities; there's a lot of other interesting-sounding material, too:


The National Space Society's 28th 28th International Space Development Conference features a number of prizes and awards. From the Education page:


Reach for the Stars Rocket Contest
In this annual national contest, each of the competitors will build and launch an Estes solid-fuel powered rocket. The goal is to have the closest landing to a downrange target. Open to ages 10 and up. Prizes for top winners.
Click for more information.


Lunar Lander Eggs Prize Competition
High school teams of up to 5 students are invited to participate in this one-day special event on Saturday, May 30 at ISDC. The LLEP is hosted by Omega Envoy, the only Florida-based team competing for the Google Lunar X PRIZE. Prizes include VIP passes to an upcoming Space Shuttle launch or tickets to the Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex.
Details are online at http://omegaenvoy.org/media/


Pete Conrad Spirit of Innovation Award
This new entrepreneurial competition has student teams develop a concept centered around one of the following: lunar exploration; personal spaceflight; or renewable energy. Team finalists have the opportunity to present their product concepts at ISDC 2009.
Click for more on the Conrad Awards


NASA/NSS Space Settlement Contest
This annual contest, co-sponsored by NASA Ames and the National Space Society (NSS), is for 6-12th graders (11-18 years old) from anywhere in the world. All contest participants are invited to attend ISDC 2009 to present their entries and participate in special activities.
Click for more on the Space Settlement Contest


In addition, the program (PDF) includes the following events for awards, contests, and space prizes, or featuring people involved with prizes. (Note: TEMPO3 isn't a prize or contest, but it won one).


Thursday, May 28

12:00 PM Elon Musk, Co-founder, PayPal and SpaceX - Von Braun Award Presentation

2:30 PM MoonROx Challenge: Lessons Learned - Dr. Peter Schubert & Jonathan Card, Packer Engineering

3:00 PM Google Lunar X Prize / NG Lunar Lander - Will Pomerantz, Michael Mealling, Bob Richards, Jason Dunn

5:00 PM Commercial Space Panel - Ken Davidian, Carissa Christensen, Lon Levin

7:00 PM Richard Garriott Private Space Explorer Pioneer Award Presentation


Friday, May 29

12:00 PM Janet Petro - Deputy Director, NASA Kennedy Space Center - Pioneer Award Presentation

4:00 PM Space Media 2.0 - William Pomerantz, X PRIZE Foundation; Robert Pearlman, collectSPACE; Jeff Foust, The Space Review; Michael Mealling, Masten Space Systems; Benjamin & Cariann Higginbotham, Spacevidcast.com

5:00 PM SSP Panel - W. Kent Tobiska, Space Environment Technologies; Ben Shelef, Spaceward Foundation; Jim Plaxco, Artsnova

5:00 PM NASA Competition and Lunar Analog ResearchDan Hawk, College of Menominee Nation Undergraduate Engineering Team

7:00 PM Gala Dinner - Speakers and Guests To Be Announced - Pioneer Award Presentation


Saturday, May 30

12:00 PM Buzz Aldrin, Apollo 11 Astronaut - Pioneer & Student Awards Presentations

2:00 PM Hands-on Education Roundtable - Matt Everingham, California Space Authority

3:00 PM Student Space Settlement Design Contest - Lynne Zielinski, NSS & Student Teams

4:00 PM Tethered Experiment for Mars interPlanetary Operations Cubed (TEMPO3)Chris Carberry, The Mars Society

7:00 PM Speaker To Be Announced - NSS and O'Neill Awards Presentations

MoonROx Internship and ISDC Presentation

I haven't posted (or seen) much about the MoonROx Centennial Challenge. However, the 2009 ISDC features a talk related to that Challenge. From the Program Agenda (PDF):

Thursday, May 28, 2:30 (Augusta):
MoonROx Challenge: Lessons Learned
Dr. Peter Schubert & Jonathan Card
Packer Engineering

Here's some related information:

Packer Engineering Company History:

4. Packer Engineering completed a NASA SBIR program on the extraction of oxygen from lunar soil. Lunar soil, also called regolith, is 40% oxygen by weight, but that oxygen is tightly bound in minerals. Oxygen is vitally important for space operations, both for propellant and for life support. To reduce mission constraints, an oxygen factory is needed which produces many times its own weight each year. A new approach to oxygen beneficiation arose during this work, in a collaborative effort between Packer Engineering and CU Aerospace (Urbana, IL) which could produce 40 times its weight in oxygen in one year. This is a potential candidate for the MoonROx Challenge, issued by the California Space Authority, for a $1,000,000 prize to the first team to produce 2.5 kg of oxygen in 4 hours from simulated lunar soil. This work is part of a broader initiative to enable space solar power, a technology with the potential to provide all mankind with pollution-free energy for all time to come.

Packer Engineering Student Internship Description -

... The Summer 2009 position comes at a critical juncture. The student researcher will have three primary responsibilities: (1) prepare detailed design drawings and bill of materials for the patent pending Dust Roaster (image at right) which extracts oxygen from regolith; (2) conduct laboratory experiments to verify free-fall heating of conductive liquids in a rf field (the key technical challenge); and (3) develop a mathematical model of the interface between the Dust Roaster and the Isotope Separator – a different apparatus which extracts metals (Si, Al, Fe, Ti) from the output of the Dust Roaster.

One objective of this work is to prepare to win the MoonROx Challenge, issued by the California Space Authority, a prize for oxygen extraction which carries a $1,000,000 first prize. Another objective is to publish the results of this research in a technical forum in the aerospace field. ...

Matt Everingham and Wil Simon on the Space Show

The Space Show - Matt from the California Space Authority has a brief post on his appearance on The July 8 Space Show. There are a number of Space Shows I want to listen to this week, and I just finished Sunday's show, so it may be a while before I catch up. From the linked summary, though, it sounds like an interesting program. The summary from Dr. Space notes (on the Regolith Excavation Challenge):

As you will hear, I will be at the contest and will conduct Space Show interviews for play on the Sunday, August 3, 2008 program. If you are in the area and can attend, please consider doing so. And remember, it's free.

Space Show Week of Prizes

This week the Space Show promises to have a lot of discussions about space prizes. A couple of interviews likely to have prize content should have already happened. I can't comment because I didn't hear them; I'll have to catch up with the archives. You can check the Space Fellowship, HobbySpace, or the Space Show News Letter for the details. Here are the talks:

Sunday: Dr. Bryan Laubscher and Dr. Martin Lades - This one is already archived; hence the link. According to the summary it's mainly about the Space Elevator Conference, but there's a lot in that conference on the SE Games.

Monday: Dr. Pat Hynes - This one is likely to feature the X PRIZE Cup (will it happen in 2008?) and the International Symposium on Personal Spaceflight. There's the possibility of Lunar Lander Challenge or Rocket Racing League questions.

Tuesday: William Simon and Matt Everingham - The main topic is expected to be the Regolith Excavation Challenge. I wouldn't be surprised if the MoonROx challenge is also discussed.

Wednesday: William Watson - This one is on the 2008 NewSpace conference, to be held soon. Prizes are certainly featured in that conference (multiple Google Lunar X PRIZE participants, X PRIZE Foundation, V Prize, former Centennial Challenges management, space VidVision competition ...). Of course a lot of other things will happen at the conference, so it remains to be seen how much prizes are discussed in this interview.

Sunday: Dr. William Gaubatz (and possibly other guests...?) - Dr. Gaubatz is Senior Advisor, X PRIZE Foundation, so you might hear questions on their prizes.

A lot the discussions depend on the callers and their questions, so if you're interested in the prize competitions these experts might discuss, give them a call during the shows!

Centennial Challenges Web Update

The Centennial Challenges website has some new (I'm not sure how new, since I haven't checked in a while) content and visuals.

The one that stands out the most to me is the map of U.S. allied organizations, competitors, and competition sites. That's a nice reference to show Congressional interests what the Challenges are already doing for them. Those various locations represent not just the listed participants, but their suppliers, sponsors, and other businesses. California in particular seems to be well-represented.

There are also a number of other visuals for the different Challenges, and there is up-to-date text on each Challenge.

There are also hints about future challenges - if the budget complies.

While you're there check out other IPP programs like FAST (Facilitated Access to the Space Environment for Technology Development and Training):

The current focus is on testing in micro-gravity, reduced-gravity or variable-gravity conditions on parabolic aircraft flights and later on suborbital and orbital flights. ...

A second objective of FAST is to utilize commercially available flight test capabilities. ...

In Summer 2008, we expect to issue a call for proposals from the broad research community for flights to occur in 2009. This call will not be limited to SBIR companies. ...

As commercial suborbital spaceflight capabilities emerge, the FAST program will seek to use those flights for technology testing. ...

NASA awarded a contract to the Zero Gravity Corporation in January 2008 to provide commercial parabolic aircraft flights to simulate variable gravity environments for research and development work. The FAST program will utilize this commercial service.

Possible MoonROx Meeting

This one is out of date because I just ran across it. The California Space Authority is considering having a Technical Interchange Meeting in June with MoonROx teams. The deadline has already passed for expressing interest in such a meeting.

Unofficial Regolith Excavation Forum and CSA Spacebound! Newsletter

Regolith Excavation team ACME Robotics has started an Unofficial Regolith Excavation Challenge Forum similar to those used by the Automotive X PRIZE, the Google Lunar X PRIZE, and others. Currently it has categories like rules, robotics, and announcements. Here's their blog post announcing the forum, and here's a press release on it.

It's good for these challenges to have active official and unofficial news and communications tools like these, and I hope we see more of this type of thing from participants in, or just people interested in and supportive of, the other Centennial Challenges like MoonROx, General Aviation, and Astronaut Glove that don't have (as far as I know) this type of help.

They also have a map of the teams. Although the official teams haven't been announced, some teams have announced their intention to enter, and the Regolith Excavation blog has mentioned that all of the teams that competed in 2007 plan to return this year. It will be interesting to see how this map develops.

Meanwhile, page 5 of the Winter 2008 California Space Authority newsletter SpaceBound! has an article on the 2008 Regolith Challenge and the MoonROx Challenge. Here's a little bit of information from the article about 2 teams I haven't heard of before:

New to the competition this year are Toy Garden, led by Charles Sink, and a team led by William Cushman. Charles Sink is a self taught toy designer and prototyper with 19 years of experience designing innovative high tech remote control and microprocessor driven robotic toys. A number of his creations have been licensed and made available on toy store shelves by nationally recognized toy companies. William Cushman, Ph.D. is a research scientist, formerly employed by the US Navy and now in the private sector focused on product development and solving production problems.

2008 Regolith Excavation Challenge Registration Opens; MoonROx Challenge Announced

As I recently posted, the California Space Authority hinted (on Matt's Blog) that they'd be presenting the official rules to the Transforming Space Conference (which they are hosting, or just finished hosting). As I mentioned in the same post, Ken Davidian, representing NASA Centennial Challenges, also presented at the conference.

What I didn't guess from this news is the following (another post at Matt's Blog):

Team Registration Open!

During the Transforming Space 2007 Conference today, following a keynote address by the Honorable Shana Dale, Ken Davidian announced the opening of team registration for the 2008 Regolith Excavation Challenge and also the opening of a $1M prize for the 2008 MoonROx Challenge. The 2008 Regolith Excavation Challenge will take place during the Summer of 2008. CSEWI is currently in negotiations with California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo in order to conduct the competition on campus.

That's one densely packed nugget of space prize news!

Check out the Regolith Excavation Site main page (which includes a cool flyer I haven't seen before that emphasizes the mobility requirements for the excavators this year, but that also gives nice pictures from last year's excavators). Don't overlook the registration page, and the frequently asked questions. Actually the one thing I don't see is the official rules, but I could have missed them, or they could be posted soon. I'd keep checking the next few days if I were a competitor (or use the contact list to find out).

Meanwhile the rules are available for the $1 Million MoonROx Challenge to extract breathable oxygen from lunar regolith simulant. Check out the MoonROx flyer, which has a similar look to the regolith excavation flyer. As expected, this prize is a bit different from the other Centennial Challenges so far in that it's a "first to demonstrate the capability" type of challenge, rather than an annual competition. You'd better be serious when you try to demonstrate your capability, because there's a hefty demonstration fee and other expenses to consider.

Here's a little background information, mostly beyond my technical abilities, on ISRU as conceived in 1993, including detailed discussions of the chemistry of extracting oxygen from lunar regolith.

I also got the following mailing from the California Space Authority that has even more details. Normally I'd give a link to something like this, but I can't find one (I assume it will appear on search engines soon ...?), and I think the whole thing is worth passing along and is intended for a public audience, so here it is:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
November 8, 2007

California Space Authority
Matthew Everingham

...

$1.75 MILLION IN NASA PRIZES ANNOUNCED
2008 Regolith Excavation Challenge and 2008 MoonROx Challenge Begin as NASA Celebrates its Fiftieth Year

LOS ANGELES – The Honorable Shana Dale, Deputy Administrator of NASA, started the day off at the Transforming Space 2007 Conference this morning by extolling NASA’s fifty years of accomplishments. In so doing, she set the stage for the announcement of the $1.75 million in NASA prize money for the 2008 Regolith Excavation Challenge and the 2008 MoonROx Challenge (Moon Regolith Oxygen), both designed to learn how to sustain prolonged lunar operations.

“Californians have played a major role in space exploration since the very beginning,” stated Shana Dale. “Since its founding, California has always been a place of promise, a place where people are inspired to reach high, to work hard and to dream big. Today, California is still the place of dreamers and discoverers.”

California hosts a large number of industrial, entrepreneurial, academic and government entities that contribute to space exploration and discovery. The Golden State hosts a robust space enterprise, including three NASA Centers – Ames Research Center, Dryden Flight Research Center and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

In the spirit of Shana Dale’s California Dreamin’ comments, Ken Davidian, Program Director for NASA’s Centennial Challenges Program announced, “It is a pleasure to be working with the California Space Education and Workforce Institute and the California Space Authority in helping make NASA’s exploration goals a reality. The 2008 Regolith Excavation Challenge and the 'new and improved' MoonROx Challenge will push innovation in technologies that will be required if we are to accomplish the nation's civil and commercial space goals.

”The Regolith Excavation Challenge offers a $750,000 purse to contestants who meet the requirements in new technologies designed to excavate lunar regolith. Excavation is a necessary first step towards lunar resource utilization, and the unique physical properties of lunar regolith make excavation a difficult technical challenge. Advances in lunar regolith excavation have the potential to contribute significantly to the nation's space exploration operations.

The MoonROx Challenge will tempt contestants with a $1 million purse. This challenge is designed to promote the development of technologies and processes to extract breathable oxygen from lunar regolith on the scale of a pilot plant. Efficient production of breathable oxygen from in-situ lunar resources has the potential to contribute significantly to NASA’s exploration mission and space operations.

“NASA’s contributions to science have had transformational affects on our everyday lives,” noted Andrea Seastrand, Executive Director of the California Space Authority (CSA). “In planning for the next fifty years of space exploration, we are excited to be working with NASA to offer $1.75 million in prize money for programs that will find ways to prolong life on the lunar surface. We are proud to be involved in an effort that could potentially transform man’s relationship with the moon far into the future.”

“We are reaching towards the future of space exploration, and we are calling on students and innovators to bring success a few steps closer,” continued Dr. Jack Gregg, Executive Director of the California Space Education and Workforce Institute, the organization responsible for putting on the challenges. “We are proud to support the NASA Centennial Challenges program and its development of space exploration."

For more information about NASA’s fiftieth year anniversary, go to:
http://www.nasa.gov/50th/home.html

For more information about the 2008 Regolith Excavation Challenge, go to: http://regolith.csewi.org/

For more information about the 2008 MoonROx Challenge, go to: http://moonrox.csewi.org

MoonROx Centennial Challenge Status?

In my previous post, I mentioned a slide show of prize-related pictures and associated text.

One of the slides says "...MoonROx Challenge, which will reward $1 million for an apparatus that can extract oxygen from simulated moon dirt. This competition, announced in 2005, has yet to prompt a single contestant".

As far as I know (I could be wrong), MoonROx isn't even on right now, which would explain why there aren't any contestants. You need to know the rules before you put money down on a registration fee. The California Space Authority site has the following information on MoonROx:

"MoonROx Challenge 2008... Coming Soon ... We are in the process of coordinating with NASA to finalize the rule set. They have been quite busy lately in their lunar architecture development efforts. With a little luck, we should have the rule set out to the general public in the July 2007 time frame."

I wrote the following notes during a talk by NASA Centennial Challenge's Ken Davidian at Space Access '07, which was only a few months ago:

"2006: Beam (200K), Tether (200K), LLC (2M), MoonROx (250K)
2007: Glove (250K), Regolith (250K), PAV (250K), Beam (300K), Tether (300K), MoonROx (750K)

For the MoonROx challenge, he just got the administrator’s signature on the $1 million prize."

The following NASA Innovative Partnership Program slide show from August 2007 has MoonROx as a 'possible'".

That's about all I know about it ... the situation isn't too clear to me. From this Spaceports article, it sounds like a lot of people would be interested in signing up for the challenge if it's offered and the details work out for them.